Living in India, my FAQ
(November 12th, 2006)
As a rule I try not to make by blog overly personal, but over the last couple of years I’ve received a lot of emails asking me about what it’s like to be an American living in India. Indian’s ask it from one perspective and American’s ask it from another. Rather than my typical rambling, half-thought-through, theme-based article, I’ve decided to write this as a rambling, half-thought-through FAQ about my life in India so that you can skip questions that don’t interest you (or skip the whole article for that matter). If you want a more artistic sense for my feelings about India, read this or this.
How did you end up going to India?
Living abroad is something I love doing. I lived in Gambia for about a year and I lived in Cuzco, Peru for about a year and a half. My wife also loves to travel and live abroad. Before we were married she had lived in Belize, Mexico, and Puerto Rico, and we moved to Cuzco when our first child was two years old. Three years ago I decided to give up consulting for a while and go back to school to get an MBA. I hired on to StorePerform (what I call a phase-2 startup) as an engineer, and during the interview I talked about my interest in living abroad. Within a few months StorePerform decided to move a lot of its development work to India and I decided to drop out of business school to come to India and help set up the office and hire the team. I’ve loved being here and think the experience has been an enriching one for the whole family.
How much do jobs pay in India?
Salaries vary widely, depending on the type of work, the experience level, etc. But this will give you some idea about how much Indians are paid in the Engineering field (these numbers are for Bangalore and will be out of date within minutes of my having written them). These are not BS numbers I know a number of hiring managers (and was one recently) and have discussed salaries often. I can identify individuals making very close to this for each and every number. They may appear low or high depending on your definition of things.
- Lowest salary (full time day laborer): $45/month (this is the one number I don’t really know firsthand)
- Driver or maid with English skill (foreigner employed): $100/month
- Absolute bottom end engineer: $3,300/year. This is for someone out of a lesser-quality school with no experience. They will not be writing code the first year, but may be doing testing.
- Good, but green engineer: $7,600/year. Someone from a good school who is bright but with little experience might make around this much. Some DBAs get about this. A mid level IT professional would be fairly happy with this salary.
- Moderately experienced (4 years) engineer: $15,200. This is for someone from a good school with solid skills. In india many of these will be considered “senior” engineers. A strong IT manager might make this.
- Very experienced engineer (7-8 years): $39,000. These are people with a strong core skill set, some will have moved to be first level managers, some will be “architects” others will be team leads.
- The very best engineer: $65,000. For the best of the best salaries get up to about this level. There are some positions paying even more, but this appears to be near the current cap.
- Engineering director (semi-direct manager of 20-30 people): $54,000. These salaries vary so don’t rely on this.
- VP engineering (small company): $90,000.
- Top Engineering manager (VP, CTO): $150,000. They may go beyond this, but that’s the top salary I know of (I’m beyond my knowledge at this point).
How can you live with yourself for helping to move American jobs to India?
This is a bit of a political question, but I get asked it a lot so I’ll answer it anyway. I am neither a flag waving America-can-do-no-wrong type nor an American who is embarrassed to admit he’s American (you know the kind I mean). America does wonderful and horrible things. Americans are wonderful and horrible people. The idea that a person deserves a particular job just because of where he was born is absurd. What’s more, it’s not true that jobs in India equates to less jobs in the US. The assumption that development work is a zero sum game is 1700s thinking. When the price goes down, suddenly there are new things that need done, new code to be written and new opportunities to be explored. Software has displaced more jobs in the US than just about anything else in the last 40 years, and yet US unemployment is about as low as it can get. Of course, companies do dumb things, and sometimes a good US team is displaced by a bad Indian one and that sucks, but sometimes a bad US team is displaced by a good Indian one and that’s nothing less than justice in my mind.
What’s the cost of living/How can people there live on so little?
Let’s start with a few basic items: housing in Bangalore is not especially cheap, but it’s much less than any major US city. A 2000 sq. ft. house might rent for between $400 to $700 per month. In pricey areas it’s certainly possible to pay $1200/month for rent with a very nice/upscale place. Petrol and Diesel cost about the same as they do in the US (maybe 20% more), but rickshaws (motorized) and busses are extremely inexpensive. If you are willing to live close to work it would be fairly easy to get by with rickshaws and pay less than $30/month for transportation. If you take the bus, transportation drops to virtually nothing. Owning a car is about as expensive in India as it is in the US, there are small cheaper models available, but for roughly the same amount of car you pay the same amount. In fact, any item made outside of India costs more than you would pay for the same item in the US. Clothing, non-imported foods, and domestically produced books all cost 1/3rd of the US price or less. Theoretically the PPP (purchasing power parity) multiplier for India is around 4.6 times the US, which should mean that $1 in India buys you as much as $4.6 in the US. I think that PPP measures commonly exaggerate this difference by failing to take into account production standards and other measures of quality so my guess is it’s more like 3X or less. This means that a mid-level engineer making $39,000 a year is making the effective equivalent of $117,000 a year.
If you’ve stayed with me this far you might be starting to think that top level engineers are really living it up. After all, $65,000 is almost $200,000 using my adjusted PPP measure. The truth is much different. PPP measures work great for staple items (food and shelter) but are more or less meaningless for luxury goods, and as you move up the ladder what you look for are not more food and shelter (although you do want some of that), it’s more luxury goods. The US worker making $200K per year can buy a Lamborghini if that’s what she wants to do (though I don’t envy her the payments), the Indian making $65,000 really can’t. She can’t buy any more car than a US engineer making $65,000 because car prices are more or less the same. On top of this, family plays a larger role for Indians than it does for most Americans, and family obligations run deep. As a result, a lot of the salary she brings in is probably not going to stay in her pocket. So, an Indian engineer with a few years experience is making enough money to live comfortably and well, but she’s not rolling in money as you might naively assume.
For people making less, the PPP numbers work in their favor. At a subsistence level the 4.6X ratio might even be a bit low. It’s certainly possible to survive on very little. Still, day laborers, rickshaw drivers, maids, etc. are all living on extremely little. Much less than most Americans and Europeans would believe possible. How? By sharing, and by going hungry at times; by buying the cheapest ingredients and cooking with dung or scrap; by living in tarp tents in areas with open sewers and rampant tuberculosis. Basically by living in conditions much worse than what a homeless person in the US or Europe faces.
As a final (and brighter) note about cost of living, let me badly misquote Benjamin Franklin: “He is richest whose pleasures cost the least.” That’s a lot more true than any PPP number I’ve ever heard.
Can someone from the US get a job working in India at US wages?
Short answer: yes, but only if you have good skills. Try a big consulting firm like Accenture, or IBM Global Services. I’ve met a good number of Americans from companies like these making great money. Any job like this will require travel, so if you’re not willing to get on a plane regularly your options will be limited. Basically top-end talent is still very scarce and so importing it makes sense for many companies. If you’re willing to take a modest pay cut then you can probably find an opportunity with less advanced skills. Companies like contractors that know how to communicate and (frankly) that look like them. Lots of companies with Indian staffs would love to have a US or European citizen fronting their communications with the client.
What’s the visa/tax situation like?
Long-term Indian Business Visas are easy to obtain for US citizens.
Taxes suck. Wouldn’t it be great if every country in the world got rid of personal income taxes… AHHH yes, that would be great. In the real world, however, from what I can tell most foreigners are cheating on their Indian taxes for no other reason than a) it’s a royal pain in the ass to do it right, and b) no one can tell that you’re cheating. I got 4 opinions from 4 tax attorneys on how to do my taxes in India. I am not a tax attorney or a CPA, but in general if you live in a foreign country you pay taxes to that country AND to the US, but the US lets you exclude portions of your income for the time your were living abroad. At lower income rates this process is simple, at upper income rates it’s a royal pain (you must source your income for every day of the year). If done properly you will pay only a few percentage points more taxes living/working in India than you would in the US, perhaps less depending on the US state. I have no idea how bad it might be for Europeans other than some unconfirmed grumbling.What’s it like raising your kids in India?
India is a very child friendly country. There are not a lot of issues with drugs and children are generally less exposed to adult themes in TV, conversation, or the media in general. Families are important and tend to be much more stable. There are a huge variety of schooling options available (at low tuition levels). There is still a strong sense of neighborhood in many areas. Although there are some aspects of child-raising in India I don’t like (excessive rote learning in some schools, excessive corporal punishment, excessive pressure on students in general, some aspects of the mother-son relationship, the general treatment of older girls), most of these things do not affect my children directly. On the whole we have found it a much easier and more fulfilling environment for raising children than what we’ve experience in the US. This is probably one of the biggest reasons that we are still in India even though I haven’t been doing any India-related work since leaving StorePerform.
Aren’t Indian programmers better/worse than US ones?
I can’t believe how often people ask me this. Guess what, they don’t all suck, and they aren’t all programming Gods. One of the best five programmers I’ve known is an Indian. Since about 1/7th of all the engineers I know are Indian that’s reasonably close to what I’d expect. You can compare programmer A and programmer B if you know them both well, but not programmers by region. There are a few things about the programming market in India: 1) it’s a seller’s market (employees market), 2) most of the schools people graduated from are pretty bad (although some are good), 3) the bulk of the engineers have less than 5 years of experience, 4) many of the most experienced Indian engineers live abroad. All of this tells you nothing about any particular engineer.
Don’t you hate … in India/Bangalore?
Indian’s ask this question all the time. The usual fill-in-the-blank is traffic (”Don’t you hate the traffic here?”) or pollution, but the list includes public urination, lack of X cable channel, “bad” architecture, and a host of others. I always find these questions a bit funny since I am a guest here in India. It is as though you have invited me in to your house and asked: “don’t you think my drapes are an ugly shade of yellow?” Of course there are many things in Bangalore that I wish were better, but on the whole I have nothing but affection and respect for India. It is a country of contradictions and complexity. It is full of a youthful spirit but restrained by centuries of tradition. It is a country whose religions have no Gods or one God or many. It is a country torn by strife but with an almost depthless capacity to heal itself. How can I complain about traffic when in such a place?
On a side note I find it interesting that these questions are the same ones I was asked in Peru and Gambia and I wonder why people seem to want to ask them. Have they been conditioned by other visitors to assume that foreigners will find these things particularly distasteful? They are often virtually the first questions I am asked when I meet someone new. When I listen to Americans talking to foreigners in the US I hear almost the opposite. Generally they will politely ask, “How do you like living in the US?”, but every so often I will here something like, “don’t you really like living here in the US?”
How long will you stay in India
I use an Agile approach to life. Moving isn’t in this sprint, ask me again in two weeks.
November 12th, 2006 at 11:42 am
It’s really nice to read American views from a person living in India. I am currently working in US and glad to know your views about the Indian life which I think very true.
November 15th, 2006 at 9:48 am
As an Indian having the ideal relation with my mother, I find it interesting that you did not like “some aspects of mother-son relationship” in India. Care to explain what you did not like about it? I suspect “reserved” nature of the relationship is on your list?
November 15th, 2006 at 6:17 pm
Your question is a good one, but also a difficult one to answer. My difficulty is not the degree of reservedness in the relationship, but the degree to which some mothers dominate their sons. The sons themselves are not usually the ones who feel the brunt of it, instead the toll is one that I have observed between husband and wife. Many women seem to have a very hard time in the early stages of their marriage as they attempt to live within the dictates of both their husband and their husband’s mother. While the man remains the general decision maker, when he is deferential to (or perhaps dominated by) his mother the effect is to disempower the woman. I have seen new wives virtually wither under the strain. This effect is present in both arranged and “love” marriages, and in some ways it is worse in love marriages as the wife can begin to wonder if this is the same man she had fallen in love with. In multi-generational homes (the norm) the effects of this can be especially strong.
A in all generalizations, this is only true some of the time. Also, I’m fairly alone in my observation of this phenomenon. I have not heard Indians complain about this problem per se. Also, please do not assume I prefer the American model where inter-generational unity seems so have fallen apart in far too many cases. Hopefully my answer will not provoke anyone. My overall point that India is a great place to have a family still stands.
November 17th, 2006 at 4:55 am
Thoughtful answer, thanks for that.
A woman grown up in an Indian family is adjustable and accommodating when it comes to family issues and conflicts. That is esesentially because in marriage, a divorce basically destroys her life from a social view point. It’s unlike American marriage where people (not only women) can easily walk out in case of conflicts and find happiness elsewhere. That’s just rare in Indian society.
I think that things have changed for good in recent years. With prosperity, has come freedom and most married couples stay away from home. So the mother-in-law is normally out of picture. The man has had a upper hand in marriage traditionally and that is not painful most of the times as the woman has grown up living under the dictatorship of her father and seen her mother adjusting to it for the greater good (and I say that not in a bad way) and so doesn’t feel anything different.
Personally though I am very friendly and open with my wife and she has a say in all matters as much as I do. And nearly all of our friends have similar relationships with their spouse.
So yeah, it’s not so widespread and not that bad any more. It will only take the more educated and free thinking generation to bring up their daughters in a equal rights environment and the daughters when they grow up into women will change the scene altogether.
Perhaps the ever imbalancing Male-to-Female ratio in India will help as well!
November 18th, 2006 at 12:33 am
I am an Indian engineer working in the UK. I find that for the same level of experience, expertise and other skills, Indian engineers can save much more working in western world, than they can in India. In my personal case at least, 10 times every month. Plus the temporary market employment is very lucrative.
November 18th, 2006 at 12:09 pm
Great post Kevin.
As an Indian I can say that most of your observations seem to be correct except the one about 7-8 year experienced engineers earning $39,000. Only a minority of 7-8 year group make that kind of money (10-20% maybe). The majority make something around $20-25k.
November 18th, 2006 at 6:24 pm
What’s the hooker scene like there? Looks? Reasonable prices? Thanks!
November 19th, 2006 at 7:12 pm
[…] Kevin Barnes have been living in India for a while. This page is his response to many people’s questions about what it is like to be an American living in India. […]
December 6th, 2006 at 12:53 am
i am living in a small town in west bengal india . i was always facinated by the way amiricans live since many of my cousines are living in us i also wanted to go to the US and live those liberated way of life . but one thing i dont know is that is living without parents and on a country where the culture dosnt match one of your own is it really easy to live for life long .
December 13th, 2006 at 8:22 am
Kevin, Thanks for this piece. I’m currently working for a US aerospace firm in Central France and considering a gig in Bangalore. Your dissertation adds a few pieces of info unavailable elsewhere. Depending on the company’s selection process and my reflection process, I may reach out to you for some more info… but in the mean time, thanks for this service.
Cheers.
December 13th, 2006 at 5:20 pm
I’m glad it was useful. In my effort to answer a lot of the questions I get over and over again I seem to have gotten even MORE new questions, but really all of that is good. I’ll probably have to do an additional set of FAQs as a result
January 8th, 2007 at 7:27 am
Made a very good read Kevin. I have tried writing something similar myself, but not as good. Very balanced yet accurate post.
January 8th, 2007 at 10:43 am
I’m glad you liked it. I’ve noticed that it’s actually working as an FAQ. I’ve gotten a lot less of these questions asked lately. Now people ask me a bunch of other questions. I suppose I’ll have to do a part two one of these days.
January 16th, 2007 at 3:16 am
I am happy about your views, Also thanks to google who gives me my answers all the time.
What I like most about your article is clear answer. I am Indian Living aboard for last 10 years.
We have been living American standard and always worry about our destination. Returning home is not going to be easy but I always look forward to that.
India has done good in last 10 years and many Indians are looking forward to return home.
I like your question from indians “Don’t you hate to live in India ”
In America , we always ask everyone, How did you find here ?.
Indians have to find good things in India which generally people ignore.
India has best music, culture, family values and important is people.
I will love to welcome more Americans and American companies to India and give jobs to people who are poor and living in tents with sub-standard.
January 20th, 2007 at 5:08 pm
nice…to hear the american people view who lives in india…and explaing the life of indian people…..
January 24th, 2007 at 8:16 am
Thanks for your report. I spent a month in Chennai in southern India as a consultant last year, and I have since toyed with the idea of moving to India. I loved pretty much everything about India, particularly the simpler lifestyles and the food.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:26 am
Immensely enjoyable article(s). I suspect a barrage of web-hits especially since some of your recent posts was linked from JoelOnSoftware (http://www.joelonsoftware.com)
Keep the articles pouring in. I love reading them.
January 30th, 2007 at 11:22 am
Hello, I currently live in Florida, I am American born and raised, of Italian heritage. I am 49 years old, and recently visited India, I fell in love with it, the deep spirituality and tolerance of the people, the art and architecture, even the food!! I am very discouraged with living in the United States; our cultural values are deteriorating at a rapid pace. The US is not a place to grow old in, many of the young people have no respect for themselves, let alone the older people. I am seriously considering moving to India (Bangalore, to be exact) within the next year or so to retire.
Your thoughts??
Mary
January 30th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
Mary:
Such decisions are difficult to give good advice about, but here are some quick observations.
Living somewhere and visiting somewhere are vastly different experiences, and a great deal of a person’s reactions stem from their mindset. If you are a big Deepak Chopra fan, for example, you will find it spiritual and tolerant (and fail to notice that it is a country with regular bombings and religiously inspired riots). If you are a Ross Perot fan, you will find it crowded and dirty and never discover its quiet and serene places (like the Kerala backwaters or the Tamil hill country).
India is a vast and contradictory country and whenever I try to generalize about it I find myself caught in a lie. If you choose to move here, try to keep your mindset open and positive, but also expect to go through a period of sadness and perhaps regret somewhere between six months and a year after you arrive. Those feeling are an inevitable part of cultural transition to any radically new environment. They will pass and if you keept your mind open you will hopefully grow in to a balanced and considered understanding of your new home.
No one can tell you if you will enjoy living abroad (in India or anywhere else), but if you have always had a strong desire to do so then you may be the right kind of person to truly love the experience. Do not over commit financially, however, since until you have been in a place at least two years you’re really not going to know what you are getting yourself in to.
I am not as critical of America as you are, in large part because I have lived in so many different places. Americans have many fine and laudable qualities (and they aren’t necessarily the ones that you’ll hear praised in a political speech or on talk radio), living abroad is a great way to heighten your appreciation of your own culture. I would encourage you to be open to that experience as well.
In any case, if you do make it to Bangalore please contact me.
February 2nd, 2007 at 2:57 pm
$39,000 to $65,000? Are those for real? No one I work with gets paid that much. Or, I should be working elsewhere.
The entry-level $7,600 figure however seems right. A person I just hired had that figure from another employer. (It did shock me to realise I was getting about a fourth of that at my first job less than ten years ago. The job market around here is truly going nuts.)
February 3rd, 2007 at 12:29 am
Those figures are for actual people that I actually know. I’ve hired a lot of people and know a lot of employers. If you are at a competitive skill and experience level then maybe you should take another look at what you are getting paid. Keep in mind that I did pick the top end salaries at those experience levels.
March 10th, 2007 at 2:55 am
Hi Kevin - Its a great FAQ, and answers many questions about life in India.
I am in process of considering an offer to move to Bangalore. I have been in US since 1993, and considering move back to India. I will contact you on your email id.
Thanks
March 12th, 2007 at 5:28 pm
hello Kevin its nice that now mostly american feels Indian ways of living a good life, recent example is the JNU Vice President..
March 16th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Thanks for your viewpoint. I have been living in Bangalore for 1 1/2 years, and have been married to an Indian for 15 years. I also have found the people here to be very open, friendly, and curious. However, as the parent of two school-age children, I find the educational system to be in desperate need of a complete over-haul. The children are placed under an unbelievable amount of pressure and strain, with a teacher’s only concern to be rote learning and marks. I find I have to spend much of my time encouraging my children to do things other than study. The pressure to memorize at the expense of real learning is so great that I feel that many students graduate with little knowledge and even fewer life skills. It is this fact alone that makes me consider returning to the US, college costs and all. So, in nearly all other respects I enjoy India, this is one area that those with children will wish to seriously consider before moving here.
Thanks!!
March 16th, 2007 at 7:47 pm
Dear Kevin,
Excellent post. A mix of thoughts and facts and very useful for someone who is in a similar situation as Yogesh (can I get in touch with both of you when I need more information?).
Mahesh
March 31st, 2007 at 1:55 pm
[…] I was reading about the views of an American living in India as a programmer. You can find it here : http://codecraft.info/index.php/archives/63/. The best part in the site was when I read this : In 2006, Time Magazine named me as … – more – […]
March 31st, 2007 at 1:59 pm
[…] I was reading about the views of an American living in India as a programmer. You can find it here : http://codecraft.info/index.php/archives/63/. The best part in the site was when I read this : In 2006, Time Magazine named me as … – more – […]
April 6th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
Please, I need very much to know the rules and the conditions to purchase a home in India, for a foreigner. My research on the web has not resulted in any concrete answer, one way or the other. Also, many emails I sent and calls made to Indian Embassies in many parts of the world have never been answered….
Thank you.
April 12th, 2007 at 4:30 am
Great website - I am an American living in the US and I would like to try to find a job in India. Is this an easy process? Do you know what kinds of job are mostly available? Thank you!
April 13th, 2007 at 1:26 am
Mahesh: I am always happy to help people out when I can. If there is something you need feel free to email me.
Hazel: I do not own a home in India and so I cannot give you much advice. I looked in to it a bit and it is possible for non-Indians to own property for a personal ressidence, however I cannot say how difficult it might be. It will also depend on what country you are from.
Ratana: Thanks. Finding a job in India can be either easy or hard depending on your job skills and background. Generally speaking, the higher paying the job the easier it is to find. In the technical arenas most jobs would be managerial in some repsect (or some combinaton of technical and managerial). There are some educational positions available in the international schools. It’s hard to offer advice without knowing more. In most cases finding a good Indian recruiter is the best solution.
May 4th, 2007 at 2:18 am
Thanks for your substantive post, it’s been one of the most helpful pages I’ve seen on the subject. I am an American University student considering a move to India in the future…the history, culture and lifestyle are very appealing to me for many of the same reasons you mentioned. I was wondering if you happen to know of any additional resources (books, websites, etc. Perhaps things you found helpful as a new arrival to India) that would give me more information along these lines.
Thanks again.
May 11th, 2007 at 8:01 am
[…] As far as commissions and compenstion are concerned, the US transactio coordinator would make a flat fee $500 or so per file, the Indian Realtors would receive the standard fees but in Rupees. So, lets say 6% was due on a $200,000 house, the Indian Realtors would receve Rs. 12,000. This is equivalent to $291 (see currency converter). Remember an average Engineer with limited experience makes US $634/month in India. […]
May 17th, 2007 at 3:10 am
Kevin,
Can you give me a starting point to research obtaining a structural engineering license for a US citizen to do a project in India?
Any hints on an American business to do business in India?
Thanks!
May 24th, 2007 at 10:44 pm
[…] I use an Agile approach to life. Moving isn’t in this sprint, ask me again in two weeks. From Code Craft, in answer to the question “How long will you stay in India?”. […]
June 16th, 2007 at 1:35 am
Hi Kevin,
Just used your post to link to a comment I left on another blog. It was in reply to a comment left by someone about visas for US citizens to work in India (basically was answering a rhetorical question left by the person). Hope this is fine by you.
The comment is for the article: http://churumuri.wordpress.com/2007/05/15/churumuri-poll-is-the-h1-b-visa-game-over/
June 26th, 2007 at 9:24 am
I loved the article. I have been in India and spend time with the ultra rich and ultra Poor, driven and walked around a lot and thought about moving there, but decided against it. For me it’s just too complicated. I am not the type of guy to work for a company and investing in business as an European (Dutch) is dangerous. You easily are taken for a ride, just like in the US.
India is fun to visit, but if you like clean, orginized and good quality food, lodging, transportation, health care and beaches Hawaii is hard to beat. Even gone to Kauai? (Hawaii Island)
Indians are filthy, just look at the sewers and the beaches, they throw everyting just out. Air is ultra polluted in the big cities, the traffic is insane, you can’t date a Indian woman because of all the social nonsense rules and ethics, (my wife is a top model and got constantly harrased), everyone will try to rip you off. Food can be good, depending where you go, just like anywhere in the US, people are friendly but friendly doesn’t get the job done.
OPning a bank account alone is hardly possible as a foreigner. No mortgages, cash only and overpriced homes that are still next to a slum with people and kids with open wounds trying to beg for a few rupees. It’s the only place I know of that you’ll see a Bentley and an oxen car waiting infront of the same traffic light.
I think Europe and the US are hard to beat if you got a bit of money.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:26 am
Kevin,
I’ve really enjoyed reading your blog. I’m planning on working in Lucknow, India next year in a longterm volunteer project at a school. Although I will just be receiving a stipend, my room and board will be included. I’m really looking forward to this experience as I love being abroad as well. I look forward to reading more of your blog.
Michael
-Chicago
July 8th, 2007 at 11:55 am
dietrick, folks like you are not actually welcome in india. you should stay in dutchland
and be happy. and stay away from indian girls. no top indian model will go out with you
since she will need to be in bollywood sooner or later. people should live whereever they
find happiness. and i whole heartedly agree with you that bangalore has become a filthy
place due to all that hype and population growth. what was once a garden city (really - in
the 70s) has now become a morass of filth while the richie rich’s all bought themselves
houses in the country clubs around there (in places like whitefield). i love hawaii too.
but you have not really seen india - not even a 10th of it. believe me. kevin for most part
is right. you cannot see it if you are not looking for it. it is too complex. if you are
around there still, try making a trip to narkanda or dharmasala or sarahan or bhimtaal or
mudumalai, you wont complain. but i still believe, hawaii or cote d’azur is the right place
for your temperment. need just a couple of $1000,000 (dont read that like a european - you
will get the wrong idea). or perhaps dutchland with 6 weeks of vacation is still the best
place - live in eindhoven or up north in amsterdam and enjoy the free pot and the free
hookers. nothing to beat that. believe me.
July 11th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
Came across your site while doing some research for a presentation on cross cultural understanding. I must admit, the piece you have written and the manner in which you have answered the many questions is a beautiful blend of Indian tolerance and American straight-forwardness. Thank you for being fair and just. And for those of you who intend to come to India, it couldn’t have been more truthful. Yes, there is filth. Yes, there are hoardes of people. Yes, there is disparity. Yet, this is still home to a billion+ folk. And this home welcomes any and everyone that comes in peace.
July 18th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
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July 21st, 2007 at 9:54 am
[…] Code Craft » Living in India, my FAQ … for a while and go back to school to get an MBA … with English skill (foreigner employed): $100 … there are some aspects of child-raising in India I don’t like (excessive rote learning in some schools … http://codecraft.info/index.php/archives/63/ […]
July 26th, 2007 at 6:53 pm
Kevin: saw your blog. Do you know anything about Guwahati? I will be moving there soon. Appreciate your insights. p.s. posted here because my mail server could not access your server.
Unity,
Paul Vaughn
pv9@earthlink.net
“Thou hast made of a gnat a lion in the thicket of Thy Mercy.”
August 6th, 2007 at 4:07 am
Kevin, I came upon your site while searching for “nursing homes/senior living” in India. Todays paper had an article by a man who had found a place in India for his parents after nearly going broke trying to find appropriate housing with caretakers here in the U.S., and as an approaching senior myself, I thought I would research this…I am open to any ideas. Anyway, he and his parents have moved to a city in India that started with a “P” and he mentioned was a “hippy like enclave”…unfortunately, I tossed the paper before I wrote the name of the city. Any ideas of your own on this subject, i.e. safety, cleanliness/appropriateness comfort level for an american going to India to spend their retirement/end of life years??? LindaG
August 7th, 2007 at 12:47 am
I think Kevin’s commentary on India and Indian life style is bang-on. I used to love India once and then I went to the US for 6 years. And everything changed. While my body lives on in Delhi, I left my heart in New Jersey!!
Still, here is as unbiased a comparison between India and the US (specially for the benefit of the future American Indians
1) For a working woman, US is paradise. They may think that things must be easy in India, since we can afford to have maids, but I prefer the dish-washers and the washer-dryers simply because they work around my schedules instead of the other way round.
Ofcourse if you are lucky and find a good maid then who is to say that India can’t be paradise. For retired folks, I would highly recommend India because I think at that stage in your life you want to deal with people and not with machinery.
P.S. There is no discrimination at work if you are woman. But most men work almost 15 hours (they sometimes even sleep over in the office). So any way women find it difficult to catch up to them.
2) In India, every one is trying to get ahead of the next guy. This is true literally. If you observe the traffic behavior, you will see how a three-wheeler zig-zags to gain that extra yard.
I have only lived in Delhi. So these observations mostly apply to Delhi, but I guess you could extrapolate it to the rest of the Indian Metros (i.e. Delhi, Bombay, Calcutta, Madras and now Bangalore).
3) One point where India scores over the US is in getting ready medical attention. I had PPO when I was in the US and still when I was really sick and needed to see a doctor they weren’t able to fit me into their schedules, too bad!!In India, you can walk-in or get appointment right-away. You don’t need insurance to get good medical care. Ofcourse you need to pay consultation fee in advance, but it is still very very affordable (specially for Americans).
This is another great plus for retired folks. You can also get a round-the-clock nurse for less (very less actually).
4) People in India are too nosey.
I find it particularly irritating this constant staring - while walking, driving, you name it. If you are a foreigner (white or black, no discrimination), expect this to be 10 times worse. If you are dressed differently (read non-conservative), then make that another 10 times.
This is particularly true in North India, I think the South Indians are slightly better at minding their own business.
5) Education - Beth has already described the problems with Indian schools. They just don’t encourage thinking. We are a nation with a billion people and yet there are hardly any world class sportsmen/women. Usually sports and other non-academic matters are deemed total waste of time. Academic achievements above all else. So people who crack the IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) entrance examination (equivalent to SAT) are granted god status by society. Now there is a second channel to achieving this god(zilla) status, that is by taking the MBA route.
6) Entertainment - Indians are horrible at making films. They have repetitive themes (love dominates all other emotion). You can watch one of the so called musicals once. But to do this over and over again and to make this an industry (that churns out movies by the nano-sec), that is height of stupidity.
The southern states are worse here (today’s actors are tomorrow’s chief ministers).
7) Weather and climatic conditions - Have you read the “Heat and Dust”. Well this applies to Delhi and neighbouring areas. Typically you have 8 months of summer and 4 months of bliss i.e. winter. Unlike the blistery cold of the Northeast.
8) BTW, its not just the weather. Typically Delhiites see water for a limited period (3 hours in the morning and 3 hours in the evening). This is not true if you have borewells sucking up all the ground water to store your tanks. So you will have 24 hours water supply then, but may be for the next ten years. After that who knows!! In this matter, we do believe in living in the moment, and planning not for the future.
Electricity is another scarce commodity. There will be load shedding at least for 3-4 hours in the peak summer. But every one has generators and power backup. And this is just one other reason why we have so much pollution.
9) Otherwise cost of living is indeed very low in India and a couple of thousand dollars goes a long way.
August 17th, 2007 at 8:48 am
Kevin,
Great blog! Can an IT professional (WAN/LAN) communications specialist with 20 years experience make a good living in India? I am out of luck if the employer requires a degree of some sort.
My wife and I are considering living in India. If you cant answer this could you please recommend a source for the answer.
Thank you,
Terry
August 26th, 2007 at 8:13 am
Hi Kevin, I found your FAQs interesting. I stayed in Bangalore for a month in 1998. I liked it. I spent most of my career as a print graphic designer. I have recently gone back to school and am doing my MIS degree. I don’t have a specific background in IT. What do you think are the prospects of my finding a position when or before I graduate? I really want to live in India for some time in the future. First I have to work for awhile, then maybe I can get a position with an American or Indian company in India. I have had mnany Indian friends for the last 14 years and am totally at home with Indian culture. I feel this is a good skill set to have if you are going to work in India. Do you think this would make me attractive to companies doing business in India? Do you know of any good sites for companies that are recruiting Americans to work in India?
Billy
September 17th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
Hi Kevin,
Your article is very helpful for foreigners who are contemplating living in India or are currently in India too.
Would it be ok if we were to reproduce your article on hhtp://www.indiaexpats.net ?
We will provide a link back to your blog here also mention any copyright information about you owning the article.
Best regards
Sonali
October 5th, 2007 at 7:51 pm
Thanks for the FAQ, this was very interesting. My daughter is an ESL major and wants to go to India to teach English and be an accent coach for a couple of years when she gets her degree. It’s great to hear your experiences and the comments of others, especially the opinions of Indian people. We’ve read some books on the history of India, she really wants to experience that part of the world.
By the way, someone said the movies are terrible. My daughter and I love Hindi movies, I enjoy the Bollywood movies. They are very different (of course) from US movies, but they remind me of the old movies in the 40’s that were glamorous and escapist. I’ve seen some that were pretty stupid, but that happens everywhere! Jai Hind!
November 9th, 2007 at 7:54 pm
I may be presented with an opportunity to move to Mumbai to work in an office established to hire local developers for a large US corporation (much like the Accenture model you mention in your article).
In anticipation of such an opoortunity, my family has begun looking into what life would be like in India so we can be better prepared to decide if the opporutnity does present itself.
While we have many questions, most center on two things. Firstly I should say that we have a 9-year old daughter.
Our first concern is security. An American living in that part of the world gives us images of a white male walking through Harlem 40 years ago. Not a good idea. lol But, clearly you are living there and you did not even mention terrorism. So, I am left to assume that this is a non-issue for you. Can you speak a little more about that? While my personal security is a concern, the security of my family is of greater concern.
Secondly, the issue of education for my daughter is of great concern. For now, I am assuming a stint in India that would range from 2 to 5 years, no longer. I would like her to be back in the US for her final high school years and subsequent college years. My concern is that she receive a quality eductaion while in India - and she is currently an advance-placement student today (so I don’t want to arrest her progress).
If you have any further thoughts on these issues I woudl love to hear more.
Thank you for this article, it was very helpful.
-Neil
November 19th, 2007 at 2:04 am
I came across your blog through a close friend of mine. Well let’s just say it’s inspiring to come across an American living in my own country holding such insight on the same. I’m currently on my graduate study in the US. I guess one thing that I share with you is traveling to and experiencing life in different places (though I’m really far behind in that - this was my first trip out of my own country). Experiencing education and life in general in US was part of the reason I came up over here. If I may hazard a guess as to why one would like it, it is because it helps one discover oneself more clearly. Because there are some aspects of one’s personality / philosophy that one can identify more with people in another culture rather than one’s own. Because it gives reassurance that it’s ok to believe in multiple ways of thinking - rather than be confined or be identified with those of a single culture which is too restrictive for feeling completeness. I hope I make some sense^_^
November 25th, 2007 at 11:02 pm
You are right with the salary numbers. I am a 8 years experienced person and recently I got an offer of $40,000/- per annum in Bangalore. But I think these kinds of salaries are only given by the “Pay Masters”. This figure is a 50% hike over what I used to get in the last company. Yep! this is also the seller’s market. I asked 50% upfront to effect the change and got it without any sort of “negotiation”. The last company was an “Indian” Software Services Company and now I am with an “American” Product Development Company. I can confidently say that the software services companies, more so the “Indian” variety ones, are never going to pay this much.
November 25th, 2007 at 11:44 pm
Viji Krishnan says:
“People in India are too nosey.
…
This is particularly true in North India, I think the South Indians are slightly better at minding their own business.”
You must be joking lady! I have spent 17 years of my better life in Delhi and I have been in Bangalore for the last 7 years. And I have exactly the opposite opinion to convey.
December 30th, 2007 at 7:27 am
Kevin,
This article is written so very very well. You cant imagine how many peole we refer to or print and share as a starting point, before they head over. Few get the succint nature of the environment and ambiance. I have heard people come back re-read your article to find it so much more relevant that when they read it first.
I have also had people with the short tolerance factor fail in their adventure beyond 500 miles…
I wanted to share my pride in seeing a fellow American handle and represent in such class American open mindedness.
thanks (from a huge huge organization)
January 19th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Hello Kevin
Thanks for the information , I want to spend a year to start with in India
I was wondering mostly about the summer heat , any problem for your family
March 1st, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Kevin, many thanks for a very informative site. I will be teaching English in Kolkata through a Fulbright Teacher exchange program from this August through December. What are your thoughts on Kolkata? Recommended neighborhoods? Any insight would be appreciated!
April 9th, 2008 at 9:41 am
Very informative site, thanks for that!! quick question: i currently work with int’l marketers and i’m curious to know, personally, how does the american dollar stand spending wise. I know 35 rupees to every 1 dollar; moreover, how far will a bugdet of say 100.00 would get you, (groceries, entertainment, cost of living, etc.) thanks again!!
May 8th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Kevin - Glad I happened upon your site. I visited India many years ago as a student and now want to return for a longer time. I have studied many aspects of India for years, I love Bollywood films , and am learning Hindi too (I know everyone speaks English there in the cities; I just love the sound of Hindi and the Devanagari script, and I feel it will also bring me some respect in return, to understand at least some of it!). I would ideally like to work there in my field (certified hypnotherapy). I will need economical living arrangements, and I don’t need luxury, but of course don’t want to give up too many conveniences. If anyone can offer good advice and information here on the cost of living now, I thank you in advance - Namaste, Susan